Dean3,Yes got your Ms about names .As i said tried to follow it years ago ,but never got far .

sweet caroline

Edit- If you look on that site ,it has Poor Relief records before 1870

Sweet Caroline.
I've removed my E mail address, though I'm not that worried about it being public.
It's one of the "disposable" ones, that I dump, if the spam gets to much.

Anyway, did you get my personal message about the apparent similarity between the nearly illegible name of the family that Elizabeth Deans was lodging with in 1851 (along with her two daughters), and the maiden surname of the mother, of the Elizabeth Deans (Wyllie), who died in the CC Poorhouse in 1873.?

deans3

Hi Andy ,Please delete your email address ,as it will go on the WWW .Yes we have 2 census 1841/61 b 1792 living in Stevenston,and 1 b1788 (Husbands birth) in 1851 Census in Kilbirnie.Did try years back to follow who she was lodging with in the 1851 census ,but got nowhere .

sweet caroline
Edit- Well,iv'e just been into the http://www.ayrshireroots.com/ site using Google crome ,and it was not there that i found any Dean/s record ,about Elizabeth Wyllie.

Sweet Caroline.

Yes, you are right, I have a scan of the 1861 census, for Elizabeth Dean, lodging with the Gardiner family.
Aged 69 born Ardrossan.
I also think you're right in saying that she was probably in the CC Poor House at the time of the 1871 census.
Were the people in the Poor House not counted during the census of 1871? Who would know about that?
I know there were in 1881, but that's too late for this Elizabeth Deans.

Going further back, (for what it's worth), I have a ascan of the 1851 census where she also appears, still in Kilbirnie, with 2 of her remaining children, Mary and Jean. Lodging with the John "something"-illegible. her age here is given as 63, born Ardrossan.
Strange thing is 10 years later the Elizabeth Deans lodging with Jean Gardner has an age of 69, born Stevenston.
Obviously doesn't tie up, but then it's all dependent on what they tell the census enumerator. I think possibly many people had many reasons for hiding their real ages, and birthplaces.
Or perhaps there were two "Elizabeth Deans's" of the same generation, living in Ayrshire.??
Not impossible, Dean and Deans seem to be quite common names in Ayrshire.......

Thanks for all your help and input Sweet Caroline.
If you turn anything else up, do let me know.

Kindest reagrds
Deans3

This is the woman she was boarding with in 1861 Census,i think she would still have been there .Think she is already in Cunninghame House.
1871
Name: Jean Gardiner
Age: 67
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1804
Relationship: Head
Gender: Female
Where born: Stevenston, Ayrshire
Registration number: 615
Registration district: Stevenston
Civil parish: Stevenston
County: Ayrshire
Address: Townhead St
Occupation: Muslen Sewer
ED: 2
Household schedule number: 57
Line: 7
Roll: CSSCT1871_115
Household Members: Name Age
Jean Gardiner 67

sweet caroline

Deans3,Well he wasn't a local
1881
Name: Hugh Lockhart
Age: 55
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1826
Relationship: Head
Spouse's name : Elizabeth Lockhart
Gender: Male
Where born: Johnshaven, Kincardineshire
Registration number: 595
Registration district: Irvine
Civil parish: Irvine
County: Ayrshire
Occupation: Governor
ED: Cunningham Combination Poor House
Line: 1

Deans3 ,How can that be right,Where have i found Elizabeth Wyllie from Robertsland.I can asure you i had never heard of it before i found it for Elizabeth Wyllie.

sweet caroline
Edit-http://www.workhouses.org.uk/Cunninghame/
Edit-regarding use of maiden name ,usual starts after husbands death .1861 using married name and James is long gone.
Edit-Giving parents names when already an elderly widow is not the norm. for this area.Husbands would have been.

Sweet Caroline.

I've often wondered the same thing. How did Hugh Lockart, the CC Poor House governor, know her parent's names, but not her husbands.
She had been a widow a long long time, I'm pretty sure he died in Stevenston in 1843, (though Scotland's people have it indexed as 1842).
I thought that perhaps she gave the information about her parents names, when she was admitted to the Poor House. I have been intouch at the Ayrshire library where the CC Poor House records are kept, and was told that there are no admissions records availabe, before about 1874.
I thought she should have been on the 1871 census, but found no trace. There is an Elizabeth Wyllie, about the right age, living in Irvine in 1871. I suppose it could be her, using her maiden name, but then why go into the CC Poor House under her married name.??
A conundrum indeed.
I'd love to tie this one down.

Dean3,Have to bow to you .Elizabeth Dean nee Murphy died at Linwood c1898 signed by Matthew McKinley Grandson 18.12.1864 Govan.1901Census at Linwood same address as Grandmother's death.

sweet caroline
Edit-must be a poor relief record somewhere ,as how did Governor have parents names and not husband's?

Sweet Caroline

The Elizabeth Deans, (ms Wyllie NOT Murphy) who died in the Cunningham Combination Poorhouse is 1873, is listed as having been 73 years old, giving a birth date of around 1800. Now I know this doesn't quite tie in with her getting married in 1811 to James Dean, but no member of her family were present at her death, (death certificate signed by the CCP House governer) she was maybe just confused about her age. I think this was quite common in that era, because anyone born before 1855 didn't have a birth Certificate.
As I said in my earlier message, there are 3 Elizabeth Wylie's born in Ayrshire around the right time frame, I've never found any way of proving which one (IF ANY), is the Elizabeth Wylie who married James Dean in 1811. I know Ayrshire roots says that her parents are Matthew Wyllie and Elizabeth Calderwood, but I can't see how Ayrshire roots makes that connection.

You are correct in saying Elizabeth Murphy you refer to was married to Elizabeth Wylie and James Dean's SON Matthew. He was born 1815.

Any more info, let me know.

Andy Deans

Believe it was this site where you viewed the towns ,and had some poor relief records printed there .My Grandmother's being one of them.Does not appear to be there as i don't get the site coming up on my computer now.

www.ayrshire-roots.com

sweet caroline

Deans3 ,I have a hunch that's Elizabeth Murphy's death cert .She claims poor relief,but can't see a death for her in Scotlandspeople 1855-1915.
Dean Elizabeth 64 Ireland 1013 2170879-2 Murphy
Dean Elizabeth 67 Stevenston 2347 2170885 Murphy
Deans Elizabeth 67 Scotland 2414 2170885 Murphy
Deans Elizabeth 67 Stevenston 2441 2170885 Murphy
Deans Elizabeth 5 Scotland 5317 1936792-3 -think this is the above's daughter.

sweet caroline
P S married to James and Elizabeth's son Mathew Deans 1815 Ardrossan