Poll - Does Scotland really want to go it alone?

[morag]

This doesn't look good..I can't decide if these people warn about impending doom (we're all doomed, doomed..) or help create it.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comm ... ating.html

[Richard]

Morag, did you actually read and understand any of that ?
Are you on something or just bored out of your mind ?
I got as far as the authors name, then switched off.
I don't know but it seemed straight out of the 'bullsheet baffles brains' school.
Personally, I can't see Australia giving up the EMU without a fight.
The article certainly isn't going to win any prizes for "plain English".

[morag]

I actually read it and understood it Richard, I'm not 'on anything' and am very, very rarely, if ever,bored. As I said, I don't know if articles such as this are red flags or sticks of dynamite.

[morag]

And here's a very eloquent piece from a man I admire.

Ian Hamilton QC



I am 86. Thus I have lived in the United Kingdom for more than a quarter of its existence. My observations on its identity and mine may be of value.

Even in the 1920s and 1930s I always knew I was a Scot. So sure was I of my identity that I never minded being called British or English. If called the latter I just thought they were wrong.

During the war we were all called English. As I grew up I discovered that my petit bourgeois contemporaries thought that there was no Scotland. It had been absorbed into its greater neighbour. Looking back this is not surprising. The union gave us the chance to expand into the great free trade area that became the British empire. We seized that chance. Glasgow was the empire’s second city. We were the workshop of the world.

Seventy years ago it seemed that the price we had paid for the wealth of empire was the loss of our identity as Scots. To be ignorant of who you are is profoundly disturbing. England suffers from it badly today. The England of the shires, of Puck of Pook’s Hill, has gone. England is now London.

We have been luckier. We are still us. We blame the loss of our industries on successive English governments not on ourselves. We did nothing. We continued to vote unionist. The enterprise that built the great forges has been lacking. I can tell you where it went. It went to schools like Fettes and Loretto where the enterprise was whipped out of them and they were squeezed into the mould of English gentlemen. They live on in their great-grandfather’s
country estates here in Argyll. The enterprise has gone elsewhere.

We lost our confidence when we lost our empire. Don’t worry. It’s coming back. Even Fred Goodwin, is a sign. Better to gamble and topple a great bank than to live in the suburban inanity of Bearsden. The 1878 failure of the City of Glasgow Bank led to the founding of the great law firm of McGrigor Donald and to the Industrial Exhibition of 1888. McGrigors, as it was laterally called, has now joined up with a great London firm. We Scots are true internationalists and there is no border to our abilities. Failure is the manure of success. The loss of empire followed by the loss of our industries has caused us Scots to look round. Even the great landlords are affronted to think their estates end at the salt seashore. The solum of the seabed to beyond the furthest horizon is still held by England. That is where the next great development will come. We have three quarters of the tidal power of Europe. Oil is pocket money compared to the tides.

Even in a nation’s history 86 years is a long time. I remember the salient points of the change from British to Scottish. None of them was political. We never got the jail for the Stone. The people cheered us. There was public support for our ‘no numeral’ campaign when Elizabeth the ‘Second’ came to the throne. Scotland had had no ‘First’ Elizabeth. Our coronation souvenirs without the numeral were wildly popular. The newspapers backed us in their news columns but refused to take our paid advertisements. They were feart as they still are.

Then one day I went into a pub and found a group gathered round a TV set cheering wildly. Someone had scored a goal against England. The affectionate anti-Englishness of the general public is far more proof of the independent vitality of the Scottish nation than any vote. There is more racial abuse towards us in the English papers than we would ever think of using towards England. It is a much loved foreign country but it is recognized as foreign.

And now we are to have a referendum. Mr Cameron, the near-illiterate occupier of the post of Disraeli and Gladstone and Churchill, steals a word from Quebec and refers to it as a neverendum. Is there a better definition of democracy than a neverendum? He will face a neverendum at the end of his five years if not sooner. In the long history of Scotland our referendum’s only significance is that we feel unhappy and we want change. Whatever the result that feeling will remain.

Recently I spoke on the same platform with a Tory and a Liberal. They said they would abide by the result of the referendum. I said I wouldn’t. I would always listen to any argument for the continuation of the union if one can be found. I have heard none except that change is bad. I asserted a principle. That Scotland is a nation. Nations should govern themselves. Can anything be clearer?

We have different values, we and London. No clearer example can be found than in our belief that education is everyone’s right. ‘Til the rocks melt wi the sun’ said our first minister on the right to a free university education.

I have lived through the last quarter of a union which brought great benefit to many countries including Scotland. I wish I was in my first year of university instead of being 86. Soon I will die. To die will be an awfully big adventure. But not as big an adventure as being young in our newly awakened Scotland.


And I don't care if it is purely emotional..

[Richard]

Morag, I know your not and I know you do.
I just wouldn't trust that sort of article, from that sort of news source and especially the long-winded
cr@p he is writing, which most of us would struggle with, to remain interested long enough to get to
the end, never mind understand it or figure out whether it is a red flag or sticks of dynamite.
It could be both, who know's ?
I just have a problem with people who write like that, when there WILL be a simpler way of putting it.
It always makes me suspicious and wonder if it is done deliberately to muddy the waters and create
confusion.
Sow the seed of doubt, maybe ?

Back in the 90', I had Hamilton's book. It was about his life and included a chapter about the time when
he and some friends 'arranged the safe return, to Scotland, of the Stone of Destiny'. Some time long
after it had been "stolen" from Scotland.

That piece you posted about Hamilton, just about say's it all really.

[morag]

Richard, I posted the Telegraph piece as a bit of a question to JD about the solid state, according to him, of the Euro, and the iffyness, according to the article, of it.
Ian Hamilton and his group...how ever did they pull that off? And to this day know one really knows, but them maybe, which is which or where.

[Richard]

It is my own personal opinion, Morag, that Hamilton and his friends deliberately designed & planned the
whole "adventure" in a way that would create so much confussion. Yes, some things, unplanned, did go
wrong but they were clever, clever enough to more or less get away with it and well done them.
Again, IMO, I have always felt strongly that the real stone has never been found.
I really couldn't care less though because, to me, what Hamilton and his friends did, means far more than
any lump of stone ever could. It was a nice gesture to a nation that needed a laugh.
If only our country had a lot more people like them.

[Richard]

692 Years ago, today, the Declaration of Arbroath was drawn up.

http://www.rampantscotland.com/know/blknow_arbroath.htm

Roll on Independence.

[Retsum]

I wonder what you think of using the forthcoming local elections as a way of expressing our opinion on independence?

[Richard]

Retsum,
That will certainly be top of my list of considerations when it comes to the "local" elections.
For 3 very simple but extremely important reasons:

(A): I refuse, point blank, to vote for ANYBODY who is a representative of a Westminster master.

(B): At both national and local level, the SNP have a far greater record than any of the LibLabCons,
(especially on councils that they control, just compare their Tory Tax, council tax, record with labours).

(C): Arguably, the most important reason is that I think it is extremely important that we have people
in place, at local level, that will work with a Scottish government to make Independence work.
The last thing we need is a load of little servants doing what their Westminster master tells them and
being DELIBERATELY obstructive, to ensure Independence either fails or is more of a struggle than it
needs to be.

You only need to look at recent events, regarding alcohol minimum pricing.
This is something the SNP have been trying to introduce for years but, as Instructed by their Westminster
masters, the LibLabCon servants DELIBERATELY voted against it just because they could.
The SNP lost that vote because they did not have an overall majority to push it through.
However, Scotland's people returned the SNP, at the next election, with a massive majority.
The SNP pushed through their alcohol policy as the servants sat on the sidelines, throwing their "dummies"
out of the pram.
Now look at what's happening, England & Wales are about to follow Scotland's example.
And that's not the only example of the obstructive behaviour we have had from the LibLabCon servants.
Just to reiterate, It is extremely important that we put people in place, at a local level, that believe in
Scottish Independence and therefore will be more inclined to work with the Scottish government to
make sure that Independence goes as smoothly as possible.
We need people, at a local level, that can and will work with our government in EDINBURGH for the better
of our country. That in turn will bring greater rewards to local communities.

[Retsum]

IMHO if we want to reach independence then the SNP is the only bus going there and we need to get on board. That may require temporary suspension of traditional allegiances in order to throw our weight behind the SNP to give them maximum punching power. When independence is achieved old parties will be reborn with a Scottish focus and no doubt new Scottish parties will emerge. The local elections are an opportunity to voice our support for independence.

[Richard]

Another leading Scottish businessman and Labour party donor, defects to the SNP.
Stating that the Labour Party have a "lack of ideas and innovation".

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home ... p.17403393

http://www.newsnetscotland.com/index.ph ... cts-to-snp